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#1 Tom R

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 02:20 PM

Has anyone tried
Eley Target
Eley Practice
What were your results compared to other 22 Ammo?
Thanks
Tom R

#2 Danny Creasy

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE(Tom R @ Feb 27 2009, 02:20 PM) View Post
Has anyone tried
Eley Target
Eley Practice
What were your results compared to other 22 Ammo?
Thanks
Tom R




I bet Tony has. He should be along shortly.


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#3 Guest_TONY Q.C.I.S._*

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE(Sheffieldshooter @ Feb 27 2009, 03:19 PM) View Post

I bet Tony has. He should be along shortly.

Here I am the first of the month (govt. check wise) is a busy day in the rental biz. Yes I have tried all the new packaging lines, I had great results with all but you get what you pay for. I shoot EPS Match exclusively in my Suhl and 40X, I have had tons of great luck with the new yellow box Target and it is only about $40-50 a brick and will shoot with any other ammo other than EPS that I have tried. I like the EPS bullet shape it is like a semi wad cutter and punches perfect holes in target paper, other than that the EPS avg. 1-2 fliers every 500 rounds where the lower in price lines the fliers increase by 30-40% as you move down the list each step. I would say this if I had to buy my ammo I would probably be shooting SK or some other "match" ammo, but ELEY reimburses me for my ammo purchases providing I wear all their garb and use their products publicly and in matches with reported results. Eley is good ammo, the best IMO but it is free except the shipping so that is a big plus. If you are a serious competitive shooter and keep shooter logs and a journal you need ELEY for the consistency, Barry has good luck with Lapua Master M I have never tried it but he keeps me and my ELEY working hard to stay on top. The biggest factor about $10 + a box ammo shoot it off a bench and you will know in 5 shots if it is you or the ammo/gun, I have never seen a rifle that wouldn

#4 Tom R

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 10:21 PM

Hi Tony,
Thanks for the reply.
Now to get to specifics.
Since I have never seen a box of the stuff.
Is Eley target marked like black box?
Speed and machine ?
What worked best for you?
Thanks
Tom

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE(Tom R @ Feb 27 2009, 10:21 PM) View Post

Hi Tony,
Thanks for the reply.
Now to get to specifics.
Since I have never seen a box of the stuff.
Is Eley target marked like black box?
Speed and machine ?
What worked best for you?
Thanks
Tom

Ok the Target is in a black box with a yellow label and just says target, the entire new line is color coded by boxes. Red for Tennex, black for EPS, Yellow for Target, avoid the blue box Team it is garbage and more expensive than the Target. I like machine 1 and 3 but I can't tell allot of difference between them it just happens to be the lots my distributor sends me, Eley is more lot# sensitive than other ammo I shoot .Every lot is a different speed but a lot of 5000 is the same on the first as the last shot so get several boxes or bricks of that lot# when you get a good one you like. Eley has a lot and production #, so lot# 1234 prod. #5678 is same lot different day or run to fill the order. So if you get 2 boxes that has the same lot and different production number it is the same formula just in 2 or however many runs it takes to fill a 10,000,000 round order don't worry about that just the lot#. What ever lot # your box has on it the first number it starts with is the machine number it was made on and then the date/production #

Edited by TONY Q.C.I.S., 28 February 2009 - 12:18 AM.


#6 Carl

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 05:59 AM

I have gotten my Eley from Bob Collins who is an Eley distributor for the SE part of the country, but any ammo ordered comes from the main supplier in Illinois... can't remember the name off hand. You can order from Bob by lot number. Finding the lot # is the expensive part... just need to try some. If you call Bob, he will send you a box from a variety of lots, but be sure he can supply whichever lots he sends samples of. He is also pretty good at picking alternate lot #s when they can no longer supply the stuff you like. They ran out of what I ordered and finished the order with a few boxes he thought might work... I tried one box and it shoots just as good. He says speed is more important than machine, but I have to respectfully disagree. My rifle shoots stuff off the #1 machine better that the others. When I mentioned that to Bob, he said I must have a tight chamber... I do, it is a Win 52D chamber which is the tightest of the match chambers. What I have found so far is mine shoots ammo best in the 1050- 1056fps range and fine tuning with the tuner will easily cover that speed range.

What I understand is, Match and Tenex come off the same machines (I believe they now have 6) and lots that meets Eleys specs on all 6 of their test barrels is boxed as Tenex (red).... if it meets their specs in at least 4 of the 6 barrels, it is boxed as Match (black), so if you find a lot# of Match that shoots in your rifle, it's just as good as Tenex.

I have never tried to order anything lower than Match by lot #, so don't know if they will do the Target, Club or any lower level varieties by lot... my guess would be no. Match now sells for what Tenex did a couple years ago and Tenex is "out of sight"... getting too darn close to $.50 a pop angry.gif !


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#7 patriot

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 06:59 AM

A fellow SB prone shooter tested Eley Black and Club in his Anschutz 2013 this week. He reported the Club would only hold the 10 ring at 50 yards. The Black was very good at 100. The way Rick has been holding lately I'd trust his results. It looks like you get what you pay for from Eley.

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#8 Tom R

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:20 PM

Hi,
Thanks to all of you that replied.The information was great.
I am looking for an alternate,for black box,a semi economical round,for practice.
My questions were answered.
My guns are for benchrest shooting.
Thanks again.
Tom R

#9 mr.nobody

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 04:13 AM

i was using eley black box myself last year. this year i tested several lots of lapua master m off of the x machines. it shoots much better in the wind than the eley in my rifles, and it shoots right there with the eley i got last year. look into the lapua. you might be surprised with what you find.

#10 Brad Clodfelter

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 06:34 AM

SK Pistol match is one of the best shooting match ammo I have found that can and will shoot in a lot of rifles.

I have shot some great groups with this ammo.

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Here's a couple of 10 shot groups with the SK Pistol Match actually doing better than the $14 a box Eley Tenex at the time. That SK Pistol Match cost me a whopping $3 a box at the time. I still have some of it.

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#11 Carl

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 11:21 AM

I have some SK Standard Plus and SK Match to try. These are the equivelent of Wolf Match Target and Match Extra produced by SK and I have had good luck with ME in several rifles. MT shoots good except for the occasional flyer they produce. A couple of guys in our club tried both of them late in the season last year and thought the Std. Plus was more consistant than Wolf MT... I think it may just have been the particular lot they got, or maybe SK is a little more critical what they sell with their name. SK Jagd is owned by VihtiVuori/ Lapua and uses Lapua primed cases.
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#12 mr.nobody

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 11:42 PM

i have to agree with brad about the sk pistol match. my hall and suhl each love the stuff. i have 2 cases of one lot that is great. i also have a case of the match(plain old sk match not sk rifle match) that my savage markII shoots very very well. the guys i shoot with use sk standard+. they like it alot, but they get some fliers out of it.

i have used wolf mt and me. the me doesn't have as many fliers as the mt, and if you do find a lot that your rifle likes buy all you can afford.

i've been told by several shooters the flat nosed eley just doesn't do as well in the wind as the lapua ammo. i have tried them all and have found lots of lapua and sk that does shoot better than the eley i tested this year and last year.

i beleive eley is over priced from what i'm seeing of other ammo makers. it takes to many round to lube the barrel compaired to sk or lapua. the sk costs about half as much as well. incase you guys didn't know it wolfme/mt,sk and lapua is all from the same company.

Edited by mr.nobody, 04 April 2009 - 11:45 PM.


#13 Carl

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE(mr.nobody @ Apr 5 2009, 12:42 AM) View Post

i have used wolf mt and me. the me doesn't have as many fliers as the mt, and if you do find a lot that your rifle likes buy all you can afford.


I've posted many times before about this, but will repeat it.... if you weight sort Wolf MT (and I would expect the same to hold true with SK Standard Plus, because it's the same thing), and eliminate the 3 to 5 or 6 very light rounds from each box, you no longer have the flyers. Heavier than the norm do not seem to be a problem. You can use the extras as fouler rounds or whatever (won't do you any good as sighters), so they are not totally lost, but if you figure price compared to Match Extra and figure the light rounds as lost, it comes out about the same, and it takes a fair amount of time to sort.


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#14 mr.nobody

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 11:51 AM

if you go ahead and buy better ammo there is no need for wieght sorting. i've used eley and all the lapua type ammo before. there is no need to wieght sort eley or lapua. no need to measure the rim thickness as well because they are pretty much spot on. the lower end lapua(sk brands) could very well be made better by wieght sorting, but you have to stop and think about this one here. what is off on the rounds? is it brass in the case, is it powder, is it the primer, or is it the bullet? you'll never really know, but for some reason it does help on lower level ammo. then the rim thickness plays into it. the rim thickness plays into the head spacing on the rifle when the round is chambered. there are the two things you need to look at with lower end ammo. by checking these two things you can in theory take the fliers out. then when you get to the range and a flier shows up you have to wonder what was wrong with that one!!!!!! and it will happen.

#15 Carl

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:37 PM

I brought this up to Brian Voelker, who built my rifle, about which component was the culprit. He said he broke some rounds down a number of years ago and weighed them and it was always the bullet that was off enough to measure. To me this did not make sense because the flyer always went low, making me think it was powder or primer. Primer would be so light as to be almost immeasurable, besides being weighed with the case which could vary. I suppose a lighter bullet could go low, but to me it seemed logical that a light bullet would go high.

I agree that weight sorting higher end ammo is a waste of time, but the lower priced it will help with some of it. Still, I found that the difference between Wolf MT and ME (and probably the SK equivalents) was the weight variation, and consequently the flyers. I just buy Wolf ME and recently SK Match instead. I still have enough MT I can use for foulers and such.


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#16 patriot

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 10:32 PM

Carl,
I've noticed the same. Probably 90+% of flyers are low.

Mark

#17 mr.nobody

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 05:29 PM

the lighter bullet has a flatter trajectory than a heavier bullet. it flies straighter to the target while the heavier bullet rises up in more of a arc than the lighter one. thus they hit lower.

#18 patriot

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:09 PM

Remember, gravity does not pull any more on a heavy bullet than a light one. A faster bullet will be exposed to gravity less over a given distance. A light 22 RF falls a lot more than a 175 grain 308 at the same distance. If two bullets left a barrel at the same speed, the one with the high ballistic coefficient would fall less since it would arrive first, regardless of weight.

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#19 Carl

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 04:09 AM

My thinking was that with equal powder loads, the lighter bullet would be slightly faster and therefore would reach the target sooner and should have gone higher on the target. This is not the way it is with these rounds, the "faster" lighter bullets impact low. I think what is happening is the powder charge, being so small in a .22 rimfire, that any very slight difference is not measurable with a re-loading scale. You would probably need some very precision scale to see the difference. Also, it would take even less of a difference in the amount of the primer compound. (One other thing I might interject here, that may start another whole discussion, is that I had a video at one time from a guy that was a national champion centerfire shooter... don't remember who he was, but he said that of all the components involved in reloading centerfires, the powder charge was the least critical. He said you could vary the charge up or down 1/2 a tenth or more and it wouldn't make any difference. Bullet, primer, type of powder, case prep, etc. were all much more critical.)

Brian had not checked Wolf or SK... I forget what he had checked, but I remember it was not those. I left a box each of MT and ME with him to try, but never asked him what he did with them.
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#20 patriot

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 05:00 AM

QUOTE(Carl @ Apr 10 2009, 05:09 AM) View Post

One other thing I might interject here, that may start another whole discussion, is that I had a video at one time from a guy that was a national champion centerfire shooter... don't remember who he was, but he said that of all the components involved in reloading centerfires, the powder charge was the least critical. He said you could vary the charge up or down 1/2 a tenth or more and it wouldn't make any difference. Bullet, primer, type of powder, case prep, etc. were all much more critical.)[/color]

Not exactly RF but it illustrates the need for ammo to be loaded precisely...

I've also heard that powder weighing is not that critical. In theory, if the rifle is tuned to a vibration node then a small change in velocity does not have a large effect. But this could be like national level smallbore shooters saying they don't clean a barrel that often. I'm not sure I buy it. glare.gif

I recently bought a used lab scale and I began reliably weighing my charges down to a single stick of Varget; about .02 of a grain. The old balance beam scale was good, .06, but not that good. As far as the other factors the rifle is a .308 using SMK 155's, the run out is .002 or less, the primers are hand seated, the Lapua brass is once fired and neck sized only, the bullets are pointed to improve BC, and seating depth is within .001 with .020 jump. The Palma 95 chamber is not cut for neck turning.

Based on the results, I think this level of accuracy matters even if only for the confidence it gives to know the ammo is as near perfect as it can be loaded. The rifle cleaned 3 of the 6 matches in a midrange prone regional last month including a 150-14X at 500. The dang second shot just missed the X ring. Elevation errors due to speed variation greatly reduce the width of a ring which means the margin for hold or wind errors is reduced. Some say pointing bullets to improve BC within 600 is also a waste of time, but the smallest improvement could be the difference between breaking or missing a ring in a wind change. Calling shots well within 1/2 MOA is a beautiful thing especially on days when your hold allows you to pick a 1/4 MOA spot to shade for wind. Besides, it doesn't take much additional time to load this precisely and it sure can't hurt.

Mark




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